Podcast Transcript – Series One, Episode 12
MARCUS BULLOCK FLIKSHOP MAY 2020
Marcus: [00:00:00] when I was a 15 year old kid, I made a mistake
[00:00:02]joy riding in your car or your neighbor’s car was a crime, but not to us
[00:00:08]don’t visit me anymore. I won’t talk to you anymore. Start grieving now.
[00:00:12]It was the mental warfare that you can never prepare for.
[00:00:16]2.3 million of them that are sitting in these cells.
[00:00:19] once we land that airport contract, it was ballgame. It was like, no, looking back for more.
[00:00:23]I went from going from that guy who was being declined for jobs, to now being the CEO of a company
[00:00:29] I didn’t have the social capital that a lot of my peers inside of the tech community have.
[00:00:33]what we’re doing in reshaping the narrative of what success looks like after prison
[00:00:38] Dan: [00:00:39] What’s up Unfound Nation. Dan Kihanya here, your host for Founders Unfound. Thanks so much for listening in. You just heard Marcus Bullock, as you can probably tell, Marcus had a rough start in his young life, even ending up in prison, but his amazing story just got started there. He went on to become a successful entrepreneur in commercial construction and is now the founder and CEO of Flikshop, a company that helps those incarcerated to stay connected with family, friends, and outside allies.
[00:01:05] Our episode is sponsored by Sherrell Dorsey’s, The Plug and by Valence, exciting new community for black professionals. Listen into our next episode for details on how exactly Valence will be working with us. I want to give a shout out and a thanks again to all those out there on the front lines of the pandemic, as well as those with essential jobs that put them in harm’s way.
[00:01:23] I’d also like to recognize that there’s real suffering out there as people’s lives and livelihoods are at stake. You know, we continue to put out Founders Unfound as a way to offer hope and inspiration and maybe even a little welcome distraction. So please keep listening in. As always, you can find our podcast on Apple, Google, Spotify, SoundCloud, Stitcher, and YouTube.
[00:01:42] And you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram @foundersunfound. Feel free to drop us a review on Apple or Podchaser. We would so appreciate it. Please follow like, and share and help us grow now on with the episode.
[00:01:55] Stay safe and hope you enjoy. hello and welcome to Founders Unfound spotlighting the best startups you don’t know yet. We bring you stories of exceptional founders from underrepresented backgrounds. This is episode 12 in our series on founders of African descent. I’m your host, Dan Kihanya. Let’s get on it today. We have Marcus Bullock, founder and CEO of Flikshop a company that helps families stay connected to their incarcerated loved ones.
[00:02:31] Welcome to the show, Marcus, and thanks for making the time.
[00:02:33] Marcus: [00:02:33] Thank you so much for having me. I’m super pumped to be here.
[00:02:36] Dan: [00:02:36] So this current crisis is impacting everyone’s lives. So let me just start with how are you doing? How’s your family and your community?
[00:02:44] Marcus: [00:02:44] You know what’s interesting? I mean, we’re living in very strange time right now, and, we’re learning how to adjust what to do, you know, to this in our home.
[00:02:51] I have a, my wife and my two small children, I live with me. One’s nine and one’s four. And we’re learning how to adjust to this new norm. It’s kind of scary because you know, my wife is from New York and she has family members that are there, and while they were really, really hit hard with Colby, there’s some been some people that are popping up inside of our lives where you know, when like, Oh man, they would hit a couple of people inside of her phone.
[00:03:19] Some of them are family’s best friends, they actually passed away. And so that was tough to get those kinds of phone calls. Wow. What it also does is it helps to reinforce the value of the moment, and we’re spending a lot of time basking in moments here now.
[00:03:34] Dan: [00:03:34] Well, that’s definitely one way to approach it.
[00:03:36] So thank you for sharing that. And I’m sorry about the losses in your larger network. Thank you. And I think we’re all at the end of this, kind of ended up knowing people that were profoundly affected.
[00:03:47]Marcus: [00:03:47] Yeah. I said that to a friend of mine that’s like, you know, we’re all gonna know we’re all going to be like one degree away from someone who was, I’m impacted by this, especially as the numbers continue to climb.
[00:03:57] So, very, very interesting times we’re living in, but I’m prayerful that we come out even stronger as a nation.
[00:04:03] Dan: [00:04:03] Absolutely. So let’s, let’s just quickly start off with help the listeners understand what, what exactly is Flikshop and what’s it all about?
[00:04:10] Marcus: [00:04:10] Yeah. So we built a technology that helps keep families connected to their incarcerated loved ones, in, prison.
[00:04:17]I’m commonly quoted as saying, you know, in prison, getting mail is like hitting the lottery. There are very few people that have the opportunity to be able to engage with their loved ones on the other side of those fences because it’s just too hard to write a letter or send a photo. And in prison there isn’t any internet.
[00:04:33] So no Instagram or. Facebook or easy emailing, or definitely not any text messaging. And so we wanted to figure out a way to fill that gap. and we first started with our mobile application that’s connecting tons of families around the country.
[00:04:45] Dan: [00:04:45] Awesome. I mean, it’s so profound, just this connection, and we’re going to talk a lot more about that, but before we dive more into the company, , let’s hear a little bit about your background.
[00:04:55] I’ve done , some studying up on you and you have an amazing story. so why don’t you tell the folks a little bit about yourself.
[00:05:02] Marcus: [00:05:02] Thank you. Again, I’ll tell you this. I never thought in a million years that this would be my life. The, the Marcus Lee wave that I’m riding right now, and absolutely loving every moment of it.
[00:05:17]when I was a 15 year old kid, I made a mistake, a huge mistake, and stole a car from a man in a mall parking lot, just a few weeks before Christmas. But that was again, about a week after my 15th birthday and landed with me standing in front of a judge.
[00:05:32] as I listened to him, sentenced to eight years in adult maximum security prisons.
[00:05:39] And so I’ve spent the rest of my teenage years, all of my early twenties, all inside of some of the, you know, Virginia state’s worst prisons. so that was a very interesting, a rough time for me. as a kid, , the thing that saved me, honestly, from being honest, is my naivety. And, you know, while we are learning that brain science is proving that these young kids.
[00:06:02] You know, haven’t mentally developed to the point where they understand the legal ramifications behind the decisions that they make. My brain couldn’t even understand not only the legal ramifications, but how, how life could change for me and everyone else that was connected to me at that time. So I sat there front of that judge in that courtroom, and while he gave me those eight years, I kind of like shrugged my shoulders.
[00:06:22] I was like, all right, cool. I’ll be home in a couple of weeks.
[00:06:27] I’ll be on a couple of weeks. Right. My mom puts me on punishment was, you know, very similar to that, but things change. And that was not my reality.
[00:06:37] Dan: [00:06:37] Yes. So I was a 15 year old boy, and I know there’s a disconnect between rational thinking and actions. And can you go back and tell us how do you get to the point where you talk yourself into stealing a car?
[00:06:51] Marcus: [00:06:51] Yeah, man. I mean, I grew up in the DC area in the mid nineties I haven’t do too much talking myself into it. Right. Like the very few people my age, like this time I’m like 85% of the people were black and majority of them in DC at the time. Right. And the majority of them live in, you know, low to middle income communities like I did.
[00:07:11] And with that came a lot of crying. and, and to be honest, it was like, blurred land crimes, right? Like, you know, smoking weed was a crime everyone else, but not us. Right? Or like, you know, joy riding in your car or your neighbor’s car was a crime, but not to us, right? Like, fighting, you know, fist fighting in the neighborhood, in the neighborhood playground, because, you know, you lost the game of basketball.
[00:07:37] Was it obvious clown, but not to us. Like these were all norms plus that norm that my friends and I slipped into, became a part of our, yeah, more about weekend. You were still a car or, you know, find a car and someone was warming up in the driveway, jumping and pull off and then go pick up your girlfriend.
[00:07:54] He goes to the skating rink. It wasn’t, you know, these weren’t. Like, you know, very heinous, malicious crimes. And again, not in the game. Like this was a horrible decision, but like that was like the norm that was like, Oh, okay, cool. Mike DOE and John DOE will ride in the car together. So in the car together, the school and afterschool, and they want to give me a ride home.
[00:08:12] So it was nothing to hop in the backseat. I’m like, I’m having a backseat. We’ll drop in, we’ll ride them around, maybe go to McDonald’s or something, go home and you know, probably repeat the same thing the next day. My feet was a little different.
[00:08:24]Dan: [00:08:24] Wow. I think people don’t really understand enough about how much the environment, and like you said, that word norms, right?
[00:08:31] What, what is norm? What is the normal, what is the expectation, and for some people, , those things that you just rattled off seem like. Ad Horyn exceptions. Right. And they didn’t grow up like you, they didn’t grow up where you were. Right. so you’re standing in front of the judge, you get in, you get the sentence, which I’m sure your family, could appreciate the severity of it, but , you, I guess, were like, yeah, whatever.
[00:08:58] Right? So, so then you get into to the system, so to speak. And so when, when did the reality sorta hit.
[00:09:05] Marcus: [00:09:05] I mean, Oh, yeah, you’re the family knew, right? I mean, from the initial arrest. In fact, when I got arrested, I wasn’t even scared of the police of the judge of the party. Like none of that. It was all like, are you going to call my mom because I may you put on punishment for this?
[00:09:20] And the police look at me like, dude, you have,
[00:09:27] you know what I mean? And I’m meanwhile, like, I’m literally like in the jail, like, Oh, yeah, yeah. I’m nervous if someone’s going to tell my mom because this is like scary for me right. And, and it was even at the courtroom when everyone was crying. And I’m sitting there thinking like, why is everybody crying year?
[00:09:44] I mean, I’m talking about, I’m now mumps in year one. I’m still calling home telling my mom like, Hey, I know I’ve been in here for a year already, but Oh, on my birthday, clearly the judge let me out. I mean, it just won’t be seven another birthday in prison. Right? Like that’s just not going to happen.
[00:09:58] Definitely not Christmas. Like, my girlfriend had promised that she was gonna buy me a Kenneth Cole t-shirt. So, I mean, I know that he’s not going to keep me there through Christmas. And then Valentine’s day, I mean, really, I mean, come on. I mean, I got a guy, I got buy Valentines for my entire class, right? Like, these are things that, you know, were like, that was my world.
[00:10:15] It wasn’t until I was about two years in, I’m like 17 years old. I’m two years in. And, I was walking around the prison rec yard. with my, with my boy Danny B, and then it’d be, was about, you know, mid fifties, early sixties. At the time, no, mind you, prison is the only place where a 17 year old can call his boy that’s 50, you know, somebody that’s 50 years old is boy, right?
[00:10:38] Like it’s a different environment cause everyone is the same here. Right? You got an inmate number, you the same. Right? And so I’m walking around the track with him and I asked him, I’m like, bro, how long have you been here? You look at him. He told me that he had been there 31 years. And that was the moment where my heart dropped, my palms get sweaty and it hit me like a ton of bricks that I was going to have to do all eight of mine.
[00:11:03] Dan: [00:11:03] Wow. And so did that change how you live your life day to day?
[00:11:08] Marcus: [00:11:08] Oh yeah. Like everything changed. Alright, happy go lucky. No worries. I’ll be home next week, kid to now, you know, officially in my head, prison inmate two four, seven, three eight four. That was what happened to live there, and I got instantly depressed, like instantly.
[00:11:27] It was, I was very dark. I started adjusting into the world that was around me before then. It was like, Oh, all of you guys are locked up and I know I’m here with you, but I’m going home. And again, remind you that my judge, the way my judge sentenced to me, he sends me to spend my time in maximum security prison.
[00:11:42] And so everyone that was there. You know, the lowest cities that people have with like 50 years, 40 years, and here I am as a kid with eight years. And wow, you know, this is, this is interesting, right? Like people are getting stabbed up over the most trivial things here. There are beasts with people, you know, Richmond, Virginia versus DC, and I’m from DC.
[00:12:03] So now I don’t know anybody that’s in here from DC, nor do I know anyone here from Richmond. But. They heard that from DC. Now I’m a part of this new beat. I had to walk around a prison rec yard with a knife in my hand. Everywhere I went, I had to make sure that my head was on a swivel everywhere I went, and I didn’t want my mom and my family members to be a part of this new cultural norm for me.
[00:12:25] I was, so I got really, really dark. I mean, I wanted to pull everyone away from me. I was like, look, don’t write me anymore. Don’t visit me anymore. I won’t talk to you anymore. Start grieving now. It’s likely that I’ll die here, right? Because I’m not one to allow anyone to. It’s a treat me a certain type of way.
[00:12:42] And if you have that mentality, that attitude in prison, that means that you’re asking for altercations. And if you’re asking for altercations, then it’s likely that they’ll escalate, escalate them. You may have used that, that might, that you have take for your top markets. And if that’s the case, then cool beans.
[00:12:59] So be it. I’ll just get an additional 50 more years. My mom lost her mind when she heard that mentality. Start to show would say,
[00:13:06] Dan: [00:13:06] wow, I would imagine she and yes, you must have, did she visit you and check in on you regularly?
[00:13:12] Marcus: [00:13:12] I mean, before then, my mom would come and visit me periodically, you know, she would visit me at least once a month, right.
[00:13:18] Because I mean, I was like four hours away from home. You can only visit four hours. Yeah, man, they shouldn’t be far. Right. So it should be to a prison that was very, very far. So now while I was in my mom, she has to drive while I was coming to sit with me for 30 minutes. And then drove four hours back.
[00:13:33] Right. It’s tough, right? I mean, in hindsight, you know, again, imagine that time like I was a kid I couldn’t understand what that even would that even mean. Right? Like, Hey, I’m like, Hey mom, come and visit me. And she’s like, okay, cool. I’ll be there Saturday and not understanding what an eight hour drive.
[00:13:47] With a 30 minute break look like. You know what I mean? So I didn’t understand that. Right? I don’t understand the magnitude of that kind of sacrifice, but she continued to do it. And then when she noticed that new market’s turning that she seen me turn that corner, she got very nervous and she said, Marcus, you have lost your mind.
[00:14:04] If you think that I’m going to let you go to this new prison culture. And that’s what she came to visit me one day. I made a promise in that prison visiting room. She told me, she said, Marcus, I’m going to write you a letter or send you a picture every day from this day forward for the remaining six years of this sentence until you come home to help you understand that there is life after prison.
[00:14:26] Dan: [00:14:26] Every day.
[00:14:28] Marcus: [00:14:28] Every single day. Every day something came through that mail slot. Right. That’s a mom. Oh man. Like now, right? Mother’s love man. Like, Oh my goodness. I mean, you know, and to be honest at the term again, like I’m like, mom, here she comes present to a prison. I’m like, I’m in summer camp so much she wants send me a bunch of pictures.
[00:14:46] I’m like, lady, you know what I got to deal with back behind those double doors. But it would like after we won, it didn’t month one and then we took 14 and then you know, most six. And next thing you know. Not only am I loving every moment of every photo and every letter that she’s writing me and we’re engaging, and we have this amazingly communicative relationship, but even my friends that you know were on the housing units with me,
[00:15:12] was David housing unit a glimpse into the world through my mom’s lens. It was incredible.
[00:15:17] Dan: [00:15:17] Wow. It’s amazing that that pivot point, right? Like you said, this combination of depression and anxiety and stress and trauma associated with China, protect yourself and yet represent yourself in a way that you don’t feel like people are just going to come at you constantly.
[00:15:35] I mean, that’s, that’s like, that’s like war psychology type stuff.
[00:15:39] Marcus: [00:15:39] Bro. It was literally, I tell people all the time, like, you know, I knew in prison I wasn’t worried about safety and prison. I knew my hands could keep me safe. You know, I didn’t grow up in a neighborhood that fighting was, you know, like people, you know, it was a, it was a part of the growing up process.
[00:15:56] You know what I mean?
[00:15:56] As I was concerned about that, I knew I would keep me safe. It was the mental warfare that you can never prepare for. I don’t care how old you are, but especially when you’re a kid. It’s like, man, like try to balance the natural energy that you’re feeling that makes you want to just bounce off the walls and go outside and play basketball with your friends and talk about things that don’t make sense.
[00:16:20] All of that kind of stuff that a normal teenager would do. Like all of that was completely, you raced out of my life by some slamming doors. And some people blowing whistles telling me where I went, where I was supposed to go, what I was supposed to do at every moment of my day. And so when you have that different kind of makeup, it forces you to have to learn how to navigate through these things mentally and then try to figure out how to bake all of those things together to successfully make it to your release.
[00:16:47] And like, I’ll tell you, I mean the environments where I was incarcerated, like I was at a minimum security facility maybe it would have been different, right? But the environments where I was.
[00:16:57] Dan: [00:16:57] Yeah, it’s, it’s an amazing experience and it’s one of those things that probably like war, it’s like you see, you can’t explain enough for people to really understand it.
[00:17:07] And so you get released. You did your whole eight years. What was life of reentry like.
[00:17:12] Marcus: [00:17:12] Yeah, I mean, you’re right. There’s no way that you can, you know what I mean? Even now, I can try to articulate as best can, but you know, until you’re waking up at 7:00 AM so people screaming across the hall saying, you know what I mean?
[00:17:23] He poked me. He pulled me, he stabbed me, he stabbed me, and they’re all locked in a cell. You see medics running down the hall and then 10 minutes later you see that person being wheeled down a. The rec yard and a body bag and you’re like, this is what you have to look forward to. You know when your 18th birthday like you like dang man, like, wow, alright, let’s propagate, let’s see how to stay.
[00:17:41] How does they go? Then they make it through another one, right? Like that’s, there’s a challenge there and it’s hard to talk about what you have to go through 365 times every year. Right now, 2004 columns. I’ve done eight years. I’m 23 years old. I really can’t even explain where I’ve been almost like the last decade of my life.
[00:18:00] My last grade completed was the ninth grade and now thrust back into the community, right? Like I got locked up in 96 where there was no internet. I come home in 2004 there was Google,
[00:18:10] Dan: [00:18:10] right?
[00:18:15] Marcus: [00:18:15] Stop lights had cameras in them like it was like things that were like mindblowing.
[00:18:22] Dan: [00:18:22] Right, right.
[00:18:23] Marcus: [00:18:23] You know what I mean? Like it was so, it was still, it was fascinating to me, but challenging as well and trying to navigate through that. it has some challenges and then you, add onto that, that I was a convicted felon.
[00:18:33] So now my 23 years old as well with the big Apple, my chest, that stands for felony and try to figure out how to readjust back into this new world. Interesting.
[00:18:41] Dan: [00:18:41] Yeah. were able to find a job? Did you go back to school? How did you approach life again?
[00:18:47] Marcus: [00:18:47] Yeah. Yes. I mean, I applied for job after job after the job because now I’m like, I’m home.
[00:18:53] And my mom, you know, she literally, I mean, she did all of that time with me and wanted to make sure I stayed safe and all that kind of stuff and wanting to make sure I had everything I needed. Now I’m like home. She’s like, look, I don’t care what you do for real. Just don’t go back to prison. You know what I mean?
[00:19:05] I don’t care what you do, where you go, just don’t go by the president. And I’m good. If you find a job, that’s awesome, right? Like go get a job at McDonald’s. Like I don’t really care like I got you. Don’t just don’t go back to prison. Right? And so I’m like, mom, look, you know, I’ve been reading, I’ve been writing, I’ve been following the wall street journal and playing the stock market game.
[00:19:24] I understand how to invest in real estate. I want to be able to be a real estate sales person. I want to get a real estate license. I’m going to do this. I have all these dreams and aspirations that my mom was like, this is awesome. And I support all of that. Let’s go, let’s go get to it. Right? And so I did, and I applied for these jobs, but the reality that I wasn’t prepared for was it, I had it completely different struggle because now I’m a 23 year old man with a felony on his record, apply for jobs, and having to hit that check box that says, have you been convicted of a felony?
[00:19:53] And that was, that was, I mean, that like beat me up all over again when I was getting denied at the job, at the job, at the job. So that was a challenge immediately.
[00:20:03] Dan: [00:20:03] Yeah, and I would imagine that basically it’s a nonstarter once he checked that box, whether they’re explicit about it or not. Right.
[00:20:11] Marcus: [00:20:11] You know what I mean? Like check a box. It’s like, Oh goodness as well. We wouldn’t give you a year. Why would you leave a comment here?
[00:20:22] Are you kidding me? My office? Right. Like that was literally the vibe that you would get when you were going through some of these. But eventually, finally I was able to find one that’s still asking that question. How about felony? But this time it asked me, had I been convicted on a felony within the last seven years.
[00:20:41] Now, after serving eight years of prison, I could say, honestly, I have not been convicted of a felony within the last seven years. And that was the first company that gave me a shot.
[00:20:50] Dan: [00:20:50] Nice. Yeah. Jesus is amazing. I want to unpack that a little bit more. So we will take a short break to hear from our sponsor and be right back with Marcus Bullock from Flikshop.
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[00:21:55] Dan: [00:21:55] So we’re back with Marcus Bullock from Flikshop. So Marcus, you were saying that you got the one qualifying question that allowed you to answer in a way that basically opened up the possibility of you getting employed and where was that? How did that work?
[00:22:10] Marcus: [00:22:10] Yeah. And so it was at a paint store and they were like, Hey, you know, we want you to come in here and mix paint for us for a minimum wage.
[00:22:17] And I’m like, yeah. Let’s do it. And so I did. And so I was a guy who you will, find behind the painting counter mixing you that you know, I think when I was there, the most famous color was Aqua Marine blue. That was interesting.
[00:22:34] Dan: [00:22:34] That’s funny.
[00:22:35] Marcus: [00:22:35] A lot of those yards,
[00:22:40] I’m mixing paint. Customers will come into to the paint store and they’re like, Marcus, how much do you charge to paint my kitchen? I’m like, well, Ms. Johnson, we don’t paint kitchens. We say, you just, it’s the rain blue. And then the painters will come into the paint store and they’re like, man, it’s tough out here.
[00:22:55] You know, the market is getting ready to change. We’ll get them ready to hit a recession. My job is laying people off, you know, I’m looking for gigs. I’m like, what are you talking about? Like people, there’s ms Johnson’s of the world to come in every day X and the paint, and then that’s when a light bulb went off and I started perspective painting contractors.
[00:23:10] It was my first. A company.
[00:23:13] Dan: [00:23:13] That is an amazing pivot point, right? I mean, some people would be like, Hey, coming from the experience you just came from, man, I finally got a job. The ability, maybe you’re used to routine, in prison, and that sort of that’s built into your mind that, you know, you appreciate that in some kind of weird way that prison has, has some freedom in that.
[00:23:33] You don’t have to decide, but you said. You know what, I’m going to go do something entrepreneurial and innovative. How do you make that connection? How do you, how do you emerge from there and say that to yourself?
[00:23:44]Marcus: [00:23:44] it was very organic. It wasn’t like, you know, Hey, we’re going to go start this big painting business.
[00:23:49] We’re going to, you know, get some people, and it was like, I can paint your kitchen for you. Of course I can. No problem charging $200 and she’s like, Oh, okay. Awesome. What’d you paint it? I’m not going to paint it for you next Friday. I’ll have my team come over. We can get you taken care of. Did you have a team?
[00:24:03] Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I will Williams. I went to one of those payments, come in and I’m like, yo, bro, what are you doing next Friday? Are you, are you busy? Like when you get finished painting at the elementary school, you’re painting. Can you do some after work? After I was working on the side for me, I get you to paint the kitchen for me real quick for $150 and they like, all right, cool.
[00:24:23] I’ll do an extra hundred dollars. You know what I mean? For a couple of hours of work after work. So they only come in, they will pay me for one 50 I would charge 200 she will get a pitch and kitchen painted. I will make 50 the painters will make one 50 everybody walks away happy and then I ask myself, how can I replicate that over and over and over again until it got to a point where my, we had enough business.
[00:24:44] That will allow me to be able to quit my job in retail and start jumping into this new construction industry.
[00:24:49] Dan: [00:24:49] And you built a pretty successful company around that, right?
[00:24:52] Marcus: [00:24:52] It was incredible. I mean, we started painting homes. It was residential, and then we, you know, we got our first McDonald’s, the rest of the ride that allowed us to get into the commercial space.
[00:25:01]a few, maybe a year or two later, I was able to land the contract for a BWI airport, and once we land that airport contract, it was ballgame. It was like, no, looking back for more. it allowed us to be able to employ, you know, employ a bunch of people and give opportunities that I had never dreamt of being able to do.
[00:25:18] It was incredible. I went from going from that guy who was being declined for jobs, to now being the CEO of a company that was painting some of the places that we all knew about in this area. And it was incredible.
[00:25:30] Dan: [00:25:30] Nice. And so tell us again, you’ve sort of made it quote unquote, right? You, struggled, you’ve meet the challenges, you have the successful business.
[00:25:38] How does Flikshop come into the picture? How does this idea emerge and what made you sort of say, I gotta go build that too.
[00:25:46] Marcus: [00:25:46] Again, very organically, right? It was like it was an accident, just like, just like the payment business. I mean, it was one of those things. I mean, as you can imagine, my life changed drastically once, the construction business started to take off.
[00:25:59] Right? I mean,
[00:25:59] my mom was able to retire from the government. You know, she had, I, you know, I was able to get her a nice luxury vehicle for every time. Again, I’m living in this amazing, you know. Three bedroom condo, but me, I don’t even know why I had him in the bedroom.
[00:26:17] I’m on the top floor looking down. I mean, this is, my life was like amazing, right? I got a drop top BMW that I’m driving around in is my work car. Right, right. Like everything is going amazingly, and my friends, the same ones I grew up with, in those cells, the same ones created those amazing relationships with.
[00:26:34] They would hit me and they’re like, bro. This is incredible. We should be able to do like, like, dude, this is amazing. We need to see this. Do you not remember when your mother used to sing you those letters and those pictures? Why are you not taking pictures of the stuff and send it to us, but I’ve never been outside of Washington, D C and you’re in Spain.
[00:26:51] I want to know what Spain looks like. Do you mean that you can see the fish swimming. At the bottom of the water. Why are you in The Bahamas? I need to see this, right? Like, dude, don’t forget about us. And I felt horrible, right? Like I felt like I was living my best life and I was like, man, I can’t believe that.
[00:27:07] You know, I knew how valuable mail was in prison, right? And unless you’ve been there, you don’t understand the value of mail and prison. It’s like, you know, think about the dopamine that you receive every time someone clicks the light button on a Facebook post. And you multiply that times 100 and next with a filling is like when you get mail in prison.
[00:27:25] And I wasn’t delivering for my friends. I knew that I had to be able to figure out a way to solve that problem and jump in.
[00:27:30] Dan: [00:27:30] That makes sense. And, I would, I could, I can empathize. I would be in the same position like yeah. I mean, I need to find a way to share this. And so how did that spin into becoming Flikshop.
[00:27:39] Marcus: [00:27:39] So, I mean, I looked in the app store, right? That was the place where you would get everything on the app store and try to look for a solution. I mean, there was apt to help me get my coffee quick, right? So, I mean, I knew there had to be a solution to help me connect with my boys that were in jail.
[00:27:52] And when we looked in there, we didn’t see one. I started Googling how to build a mobile app. so we took a bunch of revenue out of that construction business. And then started learning how to build a mobile app. And lo and behold, about a year after, you know, maybe not a year, maybe about six months, six to nine months, I think, you know, we started doing a bunch of research, talking to a bunch of people, getting smacked in the face with some crazy pricing.
[00:28:17] And then later on we finally built a small team that allowed us to be able to build what you know now today is Flikshop.
[00:28:21] Dan: [00:28:21] Nice and the way it works, basically, just so the audience knows is essentially the app allows you to take a picture or two, I imagine, import pictures and then add some words and sentiments.
[00:28:34] And essentially you turn that into a physical postcard that gets sent via physical mail to the inmates.
[00:28:43] Marcus: [00:28:43] You got it. Exactly. Hit the nail on the head. I couldn’t have said it better. And, and what we wanted to accomplish was this, same level of love and care and adoration that my mom had for me when I was there.
[00:28:53] We wanted to ensure that my friends were receiving the same and we were able to do that successfully with Flikshop. So now I just like, if my mother would take those one time, use 24 exposure, you know, Kodak cameras and you know, to the Walgreens to get them developed, send me a picture every day. Now, family members can sit on their sofa and take the pictures from their Instagram or their Facebook or their phone’s camera roll, add them to within our app, press the send button and you got it.
[00:29:18] We take that and print it on a real tangible postcard and postage to it for you and ship it directly to any person in any cell, anywhere in the country.
[00:29:26] Dan: [00:29:26] Did the prisons have any, is there any challenges with them in terms of accepting these or are they like welcomed them, or how did the prisons feel about it?
[00:29:34] Marcus: [00:29:34] Well, we spent our first three years jumping through that bureaucratic red tape. Right. You can only imagine, you know, try to introduce this level of innovation to that kind of community , we got a lot of pushback. Yeah. And, initially it was like, it was horrible, but it was only because they had never seen anything like this.
[00:29:48] Right? And a lot of these facilities, they’re in these rural communities. you know, like I said, I was out for, I was living home in the middle of some cornfields somewhere. They erect a prison. It’s all the people that work there had never seen anything like this, right? I mean, there’s, a lot of the folks there at that time still have flip phones, so they didn’t even have a smartphone even understand how this technology works.
[00:30:07] So we had a lot of pushback on it. We were very innovative and new, at the time. And eventually what they learned was that. They were able to shorten the amount of time that they spent on searching their mail because they would now just postcards versus envelope mail. They knew that they could save on a lot of the security issues and breaches because of our meter postage that were on each one of our postcards versus having a stamp that could potentially hide a drug or any other kind of contraband behind the postage like there was, solution that they enjoy.
[00:30:40] But they knew that they couldn’t replace anywhere else. Now these facilities are huge fans of our product.
[00:30:46] Dan: [00:30:46] That’s awesome. and that, you know, people, again, people don’t understand who aren’t a part of this ecosystem. What it’s like, I mean, just what you said about a stamp and them having to investigate a stamp because of the possibility that contraband is coming in on it.
[00:31:00] I think most people wouldn’t even, that wouldn’t even cross their mind.
[00:31:03] Marcus: [00:31:03] One crossed their minds now, and that was the thing for us, right? That gave us the one up, like I know what prisons were looking for when they thought about how it’s a big, you know, get successful communications back to their, the residents that live in these facilities and how are we able to deliver on it to ensure that not only we were there to support the family members and the people that lived in the cells, we also did it in a way that made the people in their facilities that administration their lives easier and made the facility overall safer.
[00:31:31] And these are some of the tools that we baked into our products, whether it be the actual tangible postcard and some of those things I just mentioned, or even how the technology works. And we were, really proud of that.
[00:31:40] Dan: [00:31:40] Like most businesses, they sound simple on the surface, right? But then you get into it and it’s like, Oh yeah, we got to do that.
[00:31:47] We didn’t think about that. And Oh, look at this as extra benefit. Now maybe we can help use that to expand our reach, or, wow, this challenge, we never even saw that coming so. And in terms of a scale, I mean, how have you sent thousands of postcards or,
[00:32:03] Marcus: [00:32:03] yeah, I mean, so, so far we’ve connected over 170,000 families, with our technology.
[00:32:09]we ship over a half a million postcards and we’re excited about continuing to grow, especially during these times, that we’re living in now in the, during the pandemic where. Prison visiting rooms are close and families don’t even have the opportunity to be able to see their son or their daughter or their husband or wife, and we want to be able to make sure that that connection stays running ramp.
[00:32:29] But the same way that you are not, again, double tap on someone’s Instagram posts. So you know, knowing and understanding that they’re safe right there in the home. They’re safe. They’re cooking meals with their children. They’re playing games on, on social. They want to take time dancing. Right, right. They just don’t know what’s happening in their daughters or their science labs.
[00:32:46] Until now. And we’re excited that so many families are leveraging our technology in order to be able to say, Hey, listen, I am home. I am safe. I am okay. I still love you. And we want to get through this together to build a platform that allows that to happen. It’s something, again, I’m very, very proud of.
[00:33:00] Dan: [00:33:00] That is an incredible aspect of this I didn’t even think about. Right. So COVID 19 we’re all on zoom and, and everything’s virtual and. In the prison, the prison system, you don’t have that option. And in fact, like you said, , it’s worse than that in that the physical visits are curtailed. So I would imagine that, connection point is even all the more important.
[00:33:21] Have you got any favorite stories that you could share about success from Flikshop?
[00:33:25] Marcus: [00:33:25] Absolutely. So there’s one I’m always excited to share. And that’s the story of my boy, Robert.
[00:33:29] Robert came home after doing 21 years in his last part of his sentence, because when he started receiving these switch postcards, luckily Robert was coming back to DC where we also have the Flikshop school of business, the training vehicle that allows for us to be able to take some of our successes of prisons entrepreneurship and build a curriculum around it that allows people in the re-etrance in DC to go through this 12 week course.
[00:33:54] That teaches them how to successfully reenter back into the community. So I mean, Robert and one of our sessions, and I’m like, man, this is incredible, right? Like Robert is, yes, you know, an awesome story of 21 years. They’d come home with this level of positivity. Cause I promise you, I mean, I did eight years and I mean, if I had to do eight years, I one day, I don’t know about to come home being as positive as I was.
[00:34:13] Right? Right. it was like literally like God knew if he would’ve gave me eight years of the day, but this guy did 21 years. I still came home and excited about life and after going through our program and learning about leveraging apples, cars, never some of those resources that go in, because when we first launched, they were only family members.
[00:34:30] So we use an app technology. But now since then. You know, you have law firms will use that technology to let their clients know about updates, the case file. You have, reentry programs that are letting people know, Hey, this is what you should come in order to be able to receive services when you get home from prison.
[00:34:44] They’re leveraging our data and our technology in ways that we never jumped about. We first launched this thing. We have, you know, department of motor vehicles that are sending FlikShops to people to say, Hey, this is where you come to get an ID or driver’s license when you come home. Because when you know that you’re going to need this.
[00:34:59] This is where you come to go get a Medicare card when you come home because we need to make sure that you’re insured. These are things that we just never jumped about. Robert’s getting these things he learns about us becomes roles in the class today. Robert is successful. He’s been home for a couple of years now.
[00:35:15] Yes. Two jobs where he’s holding. Awesome money. He has his own place. He’s married, has a child now, and he commonly texts me back and says, Marcus, I’m so grateful for this opportunity that you guys had just in sending these postcards, had a knack for Ben for those postcards, letting me know where I should go when I came home.
[00:35:34] There’s no way that I will be on this trajectory towards success. That right there is enough to warm your heart and you think, and when you’re asking yourself, should I continue to get up in the next day and fight this battle, pushing this big Boulder up a Hill and try to figure out how to solve real justice reform policy problems with technology?
[00:35:51] The answer is yes. Robert makes sure we know that every time that we hear his voice.
[00:35:56] Dan: [00:35:56] That’s a great story. Thank you for sharing that. And you know, as I’m listening to you, I’m, hearing, you know, this is more than just, you know, sort of a technology commerce type play, right? I mean, really what you’re doing is with a flick shop, a school of business and some of the other programs that you’re doing, it’s, it’s kind of a holistic approach, right?
[00:36:16] It’s about restoring humanity and dignity and citizenship and capability to men and women who essentially. , once you enter that system, I think in some ways are thrown away by society and written off. And so obviously as a model yourself, somebody who can emerge and be impactful to society, I think it’s really cool what Flikshop is doing cause you know, you, could have your construction business and you could have just had, Flikshop is like a little side thing and you know, this is my way to give back, but you’re, you’re, you’re kind of diving in head first.
[00:36:45] Marcus: [00:36:45] Yeah, man, I’m so grateful. Thank you so much for saying that and even acknowledging it, right? Because you know, this could be a thankless job. you know, , so, so often.
[00:36:52] But here’s the thing, the reality of it is, is that I knew, we all know, we all know the recipe for success. We know that if we support our children.
[00:37:02] All the way through school and they decide to go to college. Then we know what support looks like the entire time they’re there. Right? We don’t think of it as something like, you know, a bear on us to be able to support someone as they go through the next challenging phase of their life over these next four years while they’re in school.
[00:37:19] And then we also know that once they come home from school, we continue to support them as they think about what their life is going to look like after graduation. Right? So post-graduation, there’s a bunch of conversations that we’re having with our family members around employment opportunities, what careers are like maybe apprenticeship, you know, what kind of vocations are you interested in?
[00:37:38] How are you thinking about your family from that point forward? Oh, are you dating someone now? What does your life want to look like once you potentially get married to that person? Are you going to have children? these are very real life questions that we ask people when they’re going through these things.
[00:37:53] The evidence is that we are. Seeing this notion around people that are in these cells, they don’t need that kind of love. They don’t need that kind of handholding. They don’t need that kind of support. And I want a back door to say, not only do do people that need it probably even more, but we have this expectation for success after prison as if they just graduated from a four year college or university, but yet we don’t provide them with the tools for success.
[00:38:15] We have these, you know, these guidelines that say, Hey, when you get released from prison, you must go report to your probation officer immediately and you got 30 days to find a job. You have 60 days to do this. You need to make sure that you report to me off and have like all of these things that we layer on top of people.
[00:38:31] Right after they just, I mean, I remember, again, like I said, I’ve used me, for example, I went to before the internet, then there was the internet. I had to go pop with jobs on tablets, and I had never seen a tablet before.
[00:38:42] I have no idea. In fact, another true story, the first time I went to go talk to someone about getting one of these new phones, they were like, Oh, you gotta do you gotta download?
[00:38:51] You know, you’ve got to download an app to call someone. I’m like, wait a minute. I got to fill out another application just for my phone when they let us know what you gotta use the app when your phone, like where’s the application? Right? And I’m like, what is wrong with you? What’s wrong with you? And I’m like, well, why do I have to fill out an application just to use the phone?
[00:39:10] Right? And so those kinds of levels of support are missing for these people. 2.3 million of them that are sitting in these cells. Yeah. We say, when you come home, you better be successful. We want to figure out a way to be able to help success.
[00:39:25] Dan: [00:39:25] I love it. That’s great insights and great comparisons. For sure.
[00:39:29] To quote unquote normal life. We’ll take a short break again and we’ll be right back with Marcus Bullock from Flikshop.
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[00:40:30] Dan: [00:40:30] So we’re back with Marcus Bullock from Flikshop. so Marcus, let’s talk a little bit about being a tech entrepreneur. Have you done fundraising? have you had a fundraising experience so far? Are you doing fundraising now?
[00:40:41] Marcus: [00:40:41] It’s so funny. It’s interesting because I just learned what that meant for entrepreneurs just a few years ago before, and I’ve been starting and running businesses.
[00:40:51] Since 2005 and I thought that the only way, and it’s 2020 right? Right. The only way that you could run a business through revenue. I’m like, well, clearly the only way that you get, you know, but later on, I learned about, back around about 2017 2018 I learned what venture capital was. And I’m like, wait a minute.
[00:41:09] So there are wealthy people that are willing to give you money to start a bit,
[00:41:18] but like crazy trying to get this thing going. Right. but what ended up happening was it allowed me to learn not only what venture capital would look like, but the language of venture. Right. What aren’t you? The new one should look like? What are the differences between being an entrepreneur was and being a startup guy, right?
[00:41:33] Like, or having a scalable business versus having a just a business, right? Having a venture backed company, a corporation, versus having someone that’s just generating, again, like out of revenue, having shareholders versus just being myself. All of those lessons I had to learn and I learned the hard way if I’m being honest, because I just jumped like, just like everything else that I do.
[00:41:55]because again, you know, I didn’t have the social capital that a lot of my peers inside of the tech community have. because I didn’t go to, Dartmouth and I didn’t learn how to write code inside of a dorm room, right? So my level of experience was minimal, and I had to jump through a window and learn how to build my parachute while going by jumping out.
[00:42:13] Well going down and hoping and praying to God that don’t hit split right over the, over the journey. I learned how to do these things. I got accepted into a business accelerator in Techstars. we were able to bring John legend in and his, his venture fund, they invested inflict shop. And then, you know, that’s when things started to snowball for us.
[00:42:30] We’ll be like, wait a minute, we can actually really scale this idea to be something that was incredible. we knew we saw a huge league goal for my 5,000 customers at 20,000 customers. And it was like, Aw man, this is something really, really big. And so I pulled myself completely out of the construction business, focus a hundred percent in on flick shop back in around 2018 and over the last couple of years we’ve been raising money.
[00:42:53] We raised, raised our first quarter of our seed round. We’re excited about raising the last charge of that and then continue to scale up as we think about how to introduce other technologies inside of this, the justice space.
[00:43:07] Dan: [00:43:07] So you got the drop that little nugget there. So how do you come to even connect with John legend?
[00:43:13]Marcus: [00:43:13] It was interesting. John’s doesn’t team reached out to me.
[00:43:16] john had a family member who was in prison and lo and behold, he wanted to use flick shot to continue to keep in contact with his uncle. And it was incredible as he talked about, as I learned later that he had a mom that went through some things, yet other family members that have gone through some things.
[00:43:31] Because when you think of these celebrities, especially like the quote unquote clean, polished celebrity, you don’t think Holy crap, their, their mom was in jail. Right? Like you would’ve never thought John Legend’s mom was. You know what I mean? Like I had had been in jail before, right?
[00:43:47] And what I learned from that experience was that we’re all like a few degrees away from someone who made a decision to ended up in our justice. Millions of people that have come through there is 70 million since, right? Since we started pulling data on this. It’s about 70 million people.
[00:44:01] I mean, you know, sending money to people in the country is a lot of people that I’m sure have someone that’s connect to them that knows about this. And so John, his team reached out. They want it to be able to build out a fund called the free America fund. That was, that was one of support. Other entrepreneurs like me that had been justice system involved and were building solutions that were social impact and driven.
[00:44:20] And he pulled me in. He pulled me up to New York one day to make that announcement that we would want to launch that thing together. and then a few months later.
[00:44:30] Dan: [00:44:30] Wow, that’s, great. And I think, you know, as I was doing my research on you, it was pretty obvious that you’ve hit a good positive nerve in terms of the story really resonates with people.
[00:44:42] And so I think the media presence that you have, I’m sure has been helpful for you. And I’ve seen your Ted talks and your authenticity, I think is what attracts people, I’m sure. Because you’re real.
[00:44:55] Marcus: [00:44:55] Well, I’m so grateful for you saying that, I promise you, like over the years, I mean, this has been a journey for the books, right?
[00:45:02] Like yeah, I can only try to fragment some of these things that have happened over this journey. Right? But what I will say is that I am grateful for all of the hard lessons that I learned, you know? And also. what we’re doing in reshaping the narrative of what success looks like after prison, right?
[00:45:18] Like there are a ton of Marcus Bullock in those cells right now today, waiting for an opportunity for someone to be able to say, Hey, I’m going to give you a shot. The reality of it is that the talent is not lacking. It’s the access that is. And I believe that if I can leverage my this opportunity and present myself as the sacrificial lamb and openly talk about me going to prison, openly talk about the mistakes that I made, I think that maybe just maybe we can reshape how we’re thinking about the justice system and how will engaging with people that are coming out of it.
[00:45:50] Because I promise you the next solution that is plaguing you right now is only one person away from developing it, right? And that person may as well, he may be living at Brunswick correctional center, she may be living at Villanova correctional, and that’s what we want to try to bring to the life, is that there’s so much talent there.
[00:46:09] How can we create a legion of Marcus’s, we’re just the beginning. We’re not an anomaly.
[00:46:14]Dan: [00:46:14] I love that. And it’s, it’s a profound redirection of where society should head. So on our podcasts, we talk a lot about what it’s like to be specifically a black founder. and I know we’re coming to the end of our time.
[00:46:26] Marcus: [00:46:26] Well, we could do a whole show about that. That’s a whole other, yeah, let’s go, let’s jump in though. We gotta we’ve got a few minutes to jump in.
[00:46:33] Dan: [00:46:33] Alright. So the question is, you know, you have these three strikes, supposedly, right? No formal education, a felony conviction, incarceration, and you’re a black man.
[00:46:44] How do you think about those challenges? Has there been one, as a tech founder that’s been more of a challenge or an impediment, or are they combined, or how do you think about that? You know,
[00:46:54] Marcus: [00:46:54] it’s interesting because I think that there’s this obvious, it’s definitely a combination of each of those. I think that precludes me from opportunity in certain circles, but also understand that I understood the power of communication and what it looked like in order to be able to, to try to, appeal to the emotional side of those that may have had something similar happened in their family members, but I think also allows me to kind of sort of break down some of those barriers with being a convicted felon.
[00:47:19] Now that counseling helps bring down one of the barriers. Being a black man, there’s nothing I can do to change that. When I walk into a venture capitalist office and they say to me, they look at me and they’re like, wait a minute. You know, you don’t look like the last 10 people that come into the office.
[00:47:32] You definitely don’t have the background of the last 10 people that have come into my office, and even as business model that you’re bringing some, my desk doesn’t look like any of the applications that are surrounding, try to get my coffee to me quicker. So I don’t even know how to leverage this. I’ve never been in prison before, so I don’t know the value of that.
[00:47:49] I’ve never written a check to a company founder before that’s working with family members that suffer from this kind of, social condition. And I’m wondering how I can add value to this for you, Marcus, and because I don’t think that I can, I’m probably going to walk away from this deal, like sometimes it’s painstaking to know that I’m the one that’s coming into the room with a felony written very boldly on his chest. And not only am I having to have a felony, but I’m like the black guy that’s introducing the tech to be able to support people that are in prison. And these venture capitalists have no idea how to be able to support that, especially at the seed rounds where we’re raising money now, where most most investors, they want to be involved in their investments.
[00:48:28] They want to be able to give feedback and input or make connections or introduce the vendors. Like these are things that add value for them to make them feel like this is a worthwhile investment.
[00:48:37] And then they meet me. And they’re like, wait a minute, Marcus. I can’t add value to this because I don’t, I’ve never, I never been to prison before.
[00:48:43] I don’t know anyone in prison. I don’t even understand why mail is important to people in prison. And why would you continue to want to build technologies that help support this kind of community? In fact, this sounds great. It’s a great story, but I can’t add value. So I’m going to walk away from this deal.
[00:48:57] And I’ve learned that through all, all of those headaches and all of those meetings that we go to and all of those doors that get slammed in our face. That’s not really my job to be the one to help convince someone as to why they should invest in the entrepreneur that looks like me. That comes from the the comes from the communities that are come from.
[00:49:13] I want to do my job to the Lord and say that God is going to continue to bless me because I’m doing what he called me to be able to do. And I don’t want to get too overly spiritual here, but that is the thing that helps me to be able to jump through all that red tape that gets erected, the moment that people find out that either about my background or my skin color, when they think about investing or partnering in with an organization like mats, and so now I walk the world not even feeling the pressure of, being a founder of color or a founder of color with the felony.
[00:49:43] I’m like, man, look, we are building a heck of a solution. I’m giving you this opportunity to get in early. If you don’t want to partner with me early, that’s fine. I promise you I’ll be eight years in prison when I was a 15 year old kid. I promise you I can build a mobile app. What I will do is continue to build this thing and blow it up.
[00:49:57] And if you’re going to look back and you’re going to say, damn, he actually did it. I wish I would’ve got in. I
[00:50:01] Dan: [00:50:01] love that. I love that spirit and enthusiasm. And you’re right, you have a larger horizon. And you know the thing about investors is a, it’s almost like selling a house to some degree, and that all you need is just one or two people who love that house to come and buy it.
[00:50:17] Right? And it’s like, if everybody else doesn’t love it, that doesn’t matter because you only need those people who are going to be, like you said, that value add, supportive, understand. And even if they haven’t lived it. Can be understanding and enthusiastic about solving a real impact. And so I’m excited for you and I’d love for you to share with the audience just how can they get ahold of you?
[00:50:40] How can they help Flikshop how can they find out more information.
[00:50:44]Marcus: [00:50:44] Yeah. Thank you. So, I’m easy to find on all social networks, at Marcus Bullock. if maybe there’s an underscore in there somewhere, but, when it’s the ground where at underscore Marcus underscore bullets, Twitter, same thing.
[00:50:55] Facebook, your search for markets Bullock or should I say email. You have a question and you have a family member that’s in prison and you don’t know how to navigate that. Like, we want it to be able to be a part of your supporting cast members. So shoot us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org and then Flikshop is spelled F, L, I, K, S, H.
[00:51:12] O. P, because I know a lot of people, you know, phonetically, and then CNN, so with Flikshop with no, see, so Flik, S, H, O, P, M, but info flikshop.com and we will be sure to get back with you. And if you want to get involved and you want to be a, maybe you want to support a family member that has an incarcerated parent.
[00:51:29] Well, maybe you want to support a family who just doesn’t have the means to be able to connect with their loved one. We will love to invite each one of the listeners today to become a Flikshop angel. It allows for a child with an incarcerated parent to be able to send Flikshop to their loved one completely for free, and you can find out more about that at Flikshopangels.com.
[00:51:50] Dan: [00:51:50] I love it. Well, thanks Marcus so much. This has been a great conversation and, we support what you’re doing and I’m excited that we’re able to tell your story a little bit and let you tell your story. So thanks so much for making the time. Really appreciate it.
[00:52:03] Marcus: [00:52:03] Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It was great to be here.
[00:52:06]Dan: [00:52:06] Thanks so much for listening to the show. We’d like to thank our guests, Marcus Bullock and our sponsor, The Plug. Don’t forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or simply go to founder’s unfound.com forward slash listen to that’s listen t-o and follow us on Twitter and Instagram @foundersunfound.
[00:52:23] This podcast was produced by Dan Kihanya, social media and other promotion by Omama Marzuq . Our music was composed by Bobby Cole, Daniel Bordovski, James L, Dennis, CJ Harris, Keith Anthony Holden, Russell L. Howard III, Marlin Marlborough, Leonard Sylvester, Robert Valenti, and Bruce Zimmerman.
[00:52:42] I am Dan Kihanya and you’ve been listening to Founders Unfound.
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